On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 3:17 AM, A. Runn <name@emailaddress.com> wrote:
hi there,
i've been on a rollercoaster for months now.
listening to tony parsons mp3's obviously opened these eyes, but there has been a dance in and out ever since. i'm really tired of it all and i want an end of it. i already see trees, birds, everything.. more colorful, alive, but still there is the "i" torturing me mentally. the "new" perception is clearly evident while driving - it's like this body is doing it in some autopilot mode. last week it felt soooo close to disappearing that the "i" came heavy to rescue itself throwing me in an unespected depression (for a couple of months i really though i got rid of it for good). i have a long history of suicidal depression before stumbling upon this truth. it is so obvious the thing is fighting for survival right now. how can it be finally annihilated, when there is no one to do it? it can not be waited for it to happen, since the one waiting is the problem itself.. confusion, no one's confusion, it is crazy.. tony parsons says it's not just the "i" thought - it's this energetic contraction felt inside the body. i know he's perfectly right, because i have felt this contraction getting diffused and it's marvelous. and there it contracts again. there is no one and nothing to be done. i'm hopeless.
please, help.
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Thassa Amzwar <name@email.com> wrote:
Hi there back. :)
Ok. Actually, this is really good work for having simply listening to a teacher or reading books. And I was *exactly* where you are with regard to seeing. It seems that there's this very last bit to punch through.
Now, let's just focus on the no self piece rather than seeing life as more colorful and alive, because that will naturally happen as a result of seeing that there is no self, no you in the way. It's already happening! :) Let's push through to the rest.
It seems what's coming up is a remaining "sense of self" and because you understand no self intellectually, more thoughts are coming up to fight it, and that's actually REINFORCING the sense of self. It's a loop. The good news is, it's nothing but a thought loop! It's just more thought!
So, tell me, where is thought? Where does it take place in physical reality?
-t
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 12:57 PM, A. Runn <name@emailaddress.com> wrote:
yes, i hear what u say. that's exactly the dance in and out that i'm feeling - thoughts are coming to fight for the sense of self, because without it they won't have control over this body. reality is the now. reality is what's happening in the endless, infinite now -sights, smells, hearings, etc. thoughts obviously doesn't take place in physical reality, since they are just comments on what's happening. it's not the real exact thing - here this moment and gone the next. thoughts are just a cheap idea of what's happening, what has happened or what is going to happen. i say cheap because it is imposible for an idea to ebrace totally the events happening in their fullness of experience. and at the same time, thoughts are also part of the real thing - they are just happening along all other things.
the thing here is that thoughts are exploiting this body, always retelling certain stories of painful past events with 3 main notes - guilt about having done the wrong thing in the past, sense of inferiority complex in the present and fear not getting my life together in the past.
the good news is that breaking the identification with thoughts with the realization of no self is apparently making thoughts loosing their grip on this body and mind. i'm starting to see that these are not mine thoughts as there is no me to claim ownage. these are just thoughts. they were always just thoughts. they controlled this mind and body and it didn't have any choice at all. it wasn't my fault. but still it seems there is a subtle sense of self and the thoughts are coming back sticking to it, so they can exploit this mind and body. i have the feeling, although it's just another thought, that if the last piece of self burns up thought wouldn't have a center to live in and they will dissapear the moment they arise. just like in physical life - each sight, smell, sense.. is fragile and dissapear the moment it arises only another thing to take it's place.
it's just fascinating.. what are thoughts? where do they come from? they don't have place in physical reality, but they have another reality of their own - the reality of ideas, beliefs.. some sort of dream world of their own. and they manipulate physical reality by attaching themselves to the mind/body organism by creating a false sense of self?
how could be erased the last bit of sense of self? who is going to do it? who is going to see the truth if there is only truth and no one to see it. who is going to focus upon it if there is no one?
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Thassa Amzwar <name@email.com> wrote:
Excellent points, A. .
Let's play along, though, with this inquiry. It seems simplistic, but has proven to be helpful in clearly seeing through *all* of thought. I have a series of questions to ask. Want to try this? Let's start with this one.
All you need to do is to tell me where, in the physical body, thoughts are attributed. Where, in science 101 terms, do they exist? (Arm, leg, torso, head, spleen, heart, brain) See? like that kind of "where".
-t
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 2:23 PM, A. Gun <name@emailaddress.com> wrote:
they seem to fly in free space which could not be located. but anyway, it feelts like they are coming from inside the head/brain.
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 9:42 PM, Thassa Amzwar <name@email.com> wrote:
Exactly.
The feeling is of free space, but if the brain were damaged or given chemicals, the quality of thought may change or be interrupted.
What about beliefs and self concepts? Where do they exist?
-t
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 3:12 PM, A. Runn <name@emailaddress.com> wrote:
so, although thought floats in free space it is somewhat related to the brain.
beliefs and self concepts are just repeating thoughts. as a matter of space they exist where thoughts exist - free space. the difference with "casual' thoughts is that these are constantly repeating, as if they exist in time also.
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Thassa Amzwar <name@email.com> wrote:
could the thoughts, beliefs, and self concepts exist without a brain?
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 3:23 PM, A. Runn <name@emailaddress.com> wrote:
i have no idea really. i can't imagine the absense of brain.
maybe the answer is no.. like with newborns, whose brain is not developed yet. i suppose there are no thoughts.
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 10:49 PM, Thassa Amzwar <name@email.com> wrote:
You are on the right track here with two things:
There is no imagining the absense of the brain. The neurons and chemicals in the brain fire and there is thought. What follows thought? Belief. Self concept. All just neurons firing, no one firing them. It happens on its own.
Each thought is produced by a biological result. Is there a you inside the brain? Can you point to it there?
Is there an "I" which causes thinking or does thinking cause an "I"?
Which sentence below feels most true? What happens in the morning?
I wake up.
I, wake up!
Newborns. Are we born with a self? Or is it a belief that comes later?
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 4:11 PM, A. Runn <name@emailaddress.com> wrote:
"i wake up" feels more true. the happening just flows. the other looks like there is a command to wake up. from who to who? isn't it the same organism? it's some schizophrenic stuff.
obviously thinking creates the "i", not the other way around. and i can't tell if we are born with a self, since i don't remember. they say the sense of self comes later, around the age of 3, but you realize it's just a belief on my side because ive heard it somewhere. one thing i know for sure is that lately with the dissolution of self things are looking more amazing, like they looked when i was a kid. so i suppose when we are born there is no self.
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 11:45 PM, Thassa Amzwar <name@email.com> wrote:
Yes. That's what they say and if it makes sense in your own direct experience, that's what you should always go with. Believe nothing anyone tells you on the face of it, but observe and validate, always. Keep working with that one.
So, this remaining "sense of self" that pops up, what is its form? What is it made of?
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 5:14 PM, A. Runn <name@emailaddress.com> wrote:
the sense of self doesnt have a form and i have no idea what it's made of. i wouldn't say it's just thoughts, because it's more of a feeling inside the body. it's like contracted energy or something. trapped embodied energy which maked the body itself feeling heavier. before i didn't know about this cause it was the norm, but now that i know the difference i could speak of it more clearly.
i'm going to bed now. the conversation is very interesting and curiousity is arising. thank you for your time. see you tomorrow :)
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 1:58 AM, Thassa Amzwar <name@email.com> wrote:
Where inside the body? Can you point to it? Can you see it?
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 12:01 AM, A. Runn <name@emailaddress.com> wrote:
no, it could not be located. the "i" is nowhere to be found.. but still, it is felt.
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 7:09 AM, Thassa Amzwar <name@email.com> wrote:
Yes. The feeling exists, the "sense of self". But it's a feeling generated by thought. Feelings exist. Thoughts exist. But there is no you needed for any of this to happen. It's just life living itself without a controller. There is no small self directing the actions of the body or brain. It is all happening perfectly on its own.
Do you have pets? If not, go outside and observe animals. There is no self needed for life to happen, perfectly. Have you noticed this?
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 2:32 AM, A. Runn <name@emailaddress.com> wrote:
i dont have pets but i have been amazed with animals lately, insects, birds.. flowers.. everything.. i have noticed exactly what you pointed - how it all flows in unison and it is all unpredictable. since this happened i have been doing walks like never before - any time of day or night just looking around at stuff. i just forget about me and walking is happening like this body is some biological robot with no one controlling it. life just flows through it. the self is felt heavier when i'm alone at home doing nothing (thoughts of past/future come back), and when i'm interacting with other people. everything with people revolves around their sense of self. but i understand that this is also life just happening. i still can't lose myself totally when i'm with others. maybe it's a deep fear of doing something stupid, i don't know. but i see how doing just happens - regardless of feeling the sense of self or not. as a matter of fact when the self is not felt that heavy everything apparently flows much smoother. i have this "serious" job which also brings be back down often - but now that you pointed it i remember a couple of times when i was so light while negotiating that the words felt like they are just coming out my mouth, uncontrolled. i was amazed and something like fear arised that i could say something stupid (like what's really on my mind). but it wasn't exactly fear.. i wasn't uneasy.
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Thassa Amzwar <name@email.com> wrote:
Fear can be a big factor in causing resistance. Let's take a look at it.
Can you write out more about the fear aspect. It doesn't have to be specifics of your job, but write what happens when the fear is experienced. How does it take form (symptoms)? How does it come about (what prompts the fear)? How does it manifest (thoughts, feelings, etc)?
Let's look at it scientifically because looking at the *content* of fear will cause it to arise again. If we look at the *mechanism* and describe that, we can see how it works.
-t
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 12:42 PM, A. Runn <name@emailaddress.com> wrote:
i have no idea where fear comes from. obviously from somewhere not known to the mind. it will be only fair to say from nowhere. Nothing prompts it, or at least i have no idea if anything prompts, what is it. it is something beyond the mind.
it comes in the form of a thought - idea, and brings with it a feeling similar to contraction, heaviness in the body. but it seems the idea comes first and then the feeling arises in the body.
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Thassa Amzwar <name@email.com> wrote:
Yes. Fear comes as thought. Thought is real (neurons firing). The content of thought is not.
Thought: "I exist"
Thought: "Purple pigs fly by flapping orange wings."
Neither is true.
Thought: "I might make a mistake"
The thought is real. It really does occur. But take a closer look. It arises to no one. It just arises like all other thoughts. Looking at the mechanism of thought proves that they are the same except for belief. And belief is just more thought. And the feeling, too. It arises as sensation in the body. Nothing more. The thoughts connect the two but the entire mechanism can be looked at.
Life is perfect on its own. No You is required to live it. No You lives it. The conversations with clients/business associates already happen on their own. Do you know what you will say before it's said? Sometimes we think thoughts of planning these things, but there's a reason it doesn't always work out.
Trust this. Life is living itself.
Look. See. :)
Reply |A. Runn to me
show details 3:50 PM (46 minutes ago)
i see. i have no words now. if a question comes i will get back at you. hmm, so there still is doubt. but it is nobody's doubt. it's just doubt.
thank you :)
Thassa Amzwar to Atanas
show details 4:00 PM (22 hours ago)
Oh, please come back. :)
I never really get to have someone tell me about how their perspective changes after this is seen.
Can you tell me whether things are different with this understanding? I need to be sure it's seen because leaving someone in a "half state" is tricky.
How has it changed or is changing from "before"? This will also help me to help others.
thank you!
-t
A Runn to me
show details 12:59 AM (13 hours ago)
don't worry, i'm obviously not done yet haha :)
i see how it all happens by it self. the problem is there is still a suuuubtle feeling of someone seing. but it's still just a feeling. i am not doing it :)
for a period of time i had struggle with tony parsons saying there is no individual with free will and choice. the abscense of free will and choice puzzled me. now i see there is willingness, there is choosing - it's just life happening. but they ane not someone's will or choosing. it's just life rearanging people, things, the world in general. life rearranging life to say. and the act of rearranging is also life itself :)
i can't really speak of how perception has changed. i was really tired yesterday before going to bed (the last time i replied to you). the whole day i was sort of disappearing to say and by the time i read your last reply i almost couldn't find a reference to myself anymore. i was extremely tired (it was really an active daytime) but this body was functioning quite good as if tiredness didn't affect it so much. anyway i went to bed and in the morning tiredness obviously was gone and there was a stronger feeling of "i' and it was said "okay, maybe i was so tired last night that i couldn't control myself and thought i'm dissapearing". well, it wasn't exactly the case. showering and shaving in some way happened on their own. i got so sucked into shaving that there was a silent amazement with how my hand was moving, how water flushesh, how foam looks.. but it's not some marvelous WOW thing. it's more of a silent, quite, amazement. now that i type this it's interesting how fingers are moving and letters are appearing on the screen. but it's not as "wow" as shaving haha :) the feeling of it being more "dull' arises :)
actually that was a problem for a long time - waiting for some extraordinary event to take place to confirm that liberation has happened. it never did. when perception shifted for the first time there wasn't such event. i just woke up like that. now it's the same.
well, i don't know what to say really. there is a confusion related to a feeling of "trying to find a me, but there is no one". i'm going to work now. unfortunately gmail is blocked at the office, but i'm get back at you. this is really interesting and my quriousity is even stronger now. ops, it's not my quriousity. it's just life arising as quriousity.. gosh, life is just amazing, it's crazy.
btw, will this endless dialoge inside my head ever end??? before the themes revolved around my depression, fears.. now it's all about being no me and life just happening.
bye for now :)
Thassa Amzwar to A Runn
show details 1:54 AM (12 hours ago)
Very good news!As for the "sense of self" or thoughts arising, that won't necessarily stop. But! Continued seeing through to the truth will happen. Once this is seen, it cannot be unseen.
So, there may seem to be times where thoughts will take control. Look! It's not true. Ever. It's just thought, happening. Seeing through will happen again and again. It's like a new muscle developing.
As for not being done, do you mean not done seeing that there is no you? Are you waiting for the You to disappear? It won't. It is necessary for functioning in the illusory world and may likely continue. After all, the fact of no You has always been the case and look what's happened until now. See how life has unfolded with no you ever in control. This is not about "giving up the you or self", it's about realizing what has always been the case.
There is freedom. There has *always* been freedom. It is the self which has been the fiction, it is life itself which began seeking to find itself, and it is life itself unfolding which realizes this truth.
It's wonderful. No you to blame, no you to be responsible. It just is.
Listen to Tony Parsons again and see how much depth of understanding there is now.
Hope you had a great day.
-t
A Runn to me
show details 11:20 AM (3 hours ago)
Well, it was a great day indeed. Never thought doing corporate banking on autopilot could have been fun :)
I hear all that you say. Today is a new chapter. Just like the day when initial awakening happened for the first time - I knew it was a new chapter. The difference now is that somehow it is not the "I" that knows it's a new chapter. It is more like a feeling of knowing in emptiness, not concentrated and stuffed up a little "I". And, exactly as you said, at the same time it is seen that this has always been the case - it is the same book. It was always this way. The same cars, people, trees.. things, just things moving around, things being heard, sensed.. but "before" they were filtered through an "I", thus seen in some other way. I wouldn't say that "I" is bad - it's just another perspective. But the feelings are kind of not felt the same. It's like they are not heavy on a "you", but float in free space. They have no one to attach to, so no one could be under their control. Same with thoughts. Haha like you said - same with the "I" thought :))
There really are no words when trying to speak of this. It's like trying to take all life, all infinite life, and stuck it in these little words, which mean nothing. It's impossible. It can not be explained, known, or understood. This is too HUGE for anything. I don't know if I'm even confused, I just don't know what to say..
I'll keep you in touch with my condition, or better to say - with what's happening :)
Thassa Amzwar to A Runn
show details 11:31 AM (3 hours ago)
A,
*dances*
No, seriously.
*dances*
WhoooT!
Can I *completely anonymously* post this exchange on a blog I'm developing to help others see how this works. It's time more people got helped for free and in the convenience of their home, and on their own time. This is so wonderful, it should be shared.
Your name and email address would be removed, *of course*. And I would show you where it is so that you could check it. The blog is currently in development but not searchale or indexed yet so no one knows it's there. But first I'd like your permission to use the text. In the past month, several people have seen this through email exchanges I've had with them but they have gone on their way. That's ok, it's all good. But it would be sooo good to show others what is possible. Sometimes people "get it" just by reading it.
And, if you are interested, Scott at no-self.com has more information on deepening this too. That is entirely up to you but he is available.
Let me know about the permissions.
Wow. This is the most amazing thing in the world, seeing people get free.
*chills*
-t
A Runn to me
show details 2:09 PM (24 minutes ago)
You can post my name if you want, it's alright with me. As if it is someone's name to begin with hahaha.. It's just a combination of letters, used by life to refer to this body here, created by life also, so it can play the game of life haha. IT'S ALL LIFE. I can't think of a better word to describe it. If you say Life it embraces everything. It's everywhere. It's moving. It's not fixed, it doesn't have limits. It is so obvious that the mind can't find it. It is so "in your face", that it's impossible to believe it is so easy and evident.
I just got home from the gym. It's funny, seing life playing all these guys pumping muscles haha. Life pretending to be separate people going their separate routes, while it's just.. ONE FUCKING LIFE! Sorry, couldn't help it :)
So, post it. I would be very happy if it is of help. I got my share of depression. I'm 30 and spend a third of my life depressed. I had many episodes really close to the edge with no apparent "serious" reason. I just wanted to die, seriously. I see it was all life - playing the game of "I" being depressed, wanting to die.. Now it is like it never happened. It doesn't matter. No me, no story. No mistakes, no regrets. Nothing. Just life happening. And this here is just another fairy tale, nothing of importance :)
And yes, I'm interested into deepening into this. It's so funny, that I am using "I" without actually meaning it ;)
photo credit: tielkric
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thanks for the thoughts...